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Here are other passages that would make it appear that salvation is conditional.
Luke 8:13
"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
These are individuals who received and believed, but then fall away. The Bible talks about a great falling away. Cannot fall away unless you were 'in the way'.
Parable of Ten Virgins
Matthew 25:1-13
All had oil (all had the Holy Spirit), but the foolish brides did not bring extra oil. The bridegroom says "I do not know you". vs 13 says be on the alert. There is no reason to be on the alert if there is no chance of being part of the feast or of missing the feast. The foolish brides may represent those who accept Christ, but then live a careless life trusting they will still make it into heaven.
Luke 12:42-46
42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Notice the slave is assigned to the place with the unbelievers. That means the slave originally was not seen as an unbeliever, but as a believer.
John 15:5-6
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
If one does not remain they will be thrown into the fire and burned. This would insinuate the person was in Christ at one time and that if they do not remain in Christ they will be detached.
Conclusion
We had three studies on the 'If' statements in the Bible regarding salvation.
We had two studies on the Conditional statements in the Bible.
Those who come from the Eternal Security persuasion will mainly argue against these verses stating that the if and conditional statements are applying to those who are not really saved. That is the position they must take in order to defend their position because it is obvious that there are dire consequences for those who do not meet the ifs and conditions. The problem with their argument regarding that the individuals were never really saved is that many of these verses make it clear that the person had a saving relationship with Christ.
Phrases like the following that are warnings would make no sense if the person was not saved. There is no need to warn a lost person-there is nothing for them to lose since they do not have salvation in the first place:
'Do not throw away your confidence', 'need of endurance', 'there no longer remains', 'if we hold fast our confidence', 'do not harden your hearts', 'falls away from the living God', 'hardened by the deceitfulness of sin', 'if we hold fast', 'do not harden your hearts', 'if we endure', 'if we deny him', 'if you indeed continue in the faith', 'and not moved away', 'if you hold fast the word'.
If one is honest the above phrases would make no sense if it is being addressed to a person who has never been born again.
The other argument that Eternal Security individuals will make when they cannot deny the above, is that the punishment is not the loss of salvation but the loss or rewards. However, the warnings show the consequences to be much more than the lack of rewards. The consequences in the verses we have looked at in the last several studies, show a person being cast into fire, being separated from God, destruction, etc.
Last Point
Say we are wrong regarding salvation being conditional. What harm is there, if done in the right way, to warn people that they can walk away from their salvation? If conditional salvation is taken as a truth, then individuals will desire to walk in holiness. (I have already addressed the dangers of conditional salvation if taken to the extreme.)
What is the harm done if a person believes they have eternal security in their salvation and they don't? I think that is obvious. All of the warnings point to the danger of believing your salvation is secure no matter what. Now the eternal security group will argue that a person truly saved will never want to stray from God. Hopefully they are right, but again, if they are wrong there are some dire consequences.
Even though we have shown that there are ifs and conditions to ongoing salvation, I believe a person can be secure in their salvation. I do believe in eternal security in the sense of, if I abide in Christ, obey the Holy Spirit, repent when I fall short, my salvation is secure. I am safe in the arms of Jesus as long as I choose to be in His arms. Thank goodness He has long arms to grab me if I start to wander.
(no subject) [
Reply]
Then your take on eternal security has nothing at all to do with the power and glory of God.
It has to do with your ability to abide in Christ, to repent, to obey the Holy Spirit, to choose to be in the arms of Jesus, and if it is the long arm of Jesus that in the end grabs you when you wander away, then the fact that you are secure depends on your allowing him to grab you, right ?
I mean no offense, but both sides, eternal security and lost salvation, have it all wrong.
The reason why those of the eternal security persuasion are unable to defend their position in the face of seemingly contradictory Scriptures such as you cited is because they, as well as those of your persuasion, tend to look at salvation as just one.
There are two types of salvation in the Bible.
One is ALL OF THE LORD, planned, agreed on, and bestowed since eternity past, pictured and enacted by the Almighty in the Old Testament sacrifices and laws, and finally consummated in this plane called time at the cross.
The other is salvation from the consequences of living in a fallen world, where the believer needs gospel instruction, gospel adherence to Christ, and a gospel family to help uphold him in prayer and doctrine, and from this type of salvation, one can wander away, but doing so never endangers his eternal salvation because that one is finished.
With all due respects and love.
"Then your take on eternal security has nothing at all to do with the power and glory of God."
No that is not my take. Eternal security absolutely is based upon the power of God. God is more than able to provide eternal security and desires to provide eternal security. He will do everything He can preserve a person's salvation. But yes, a Christian does have a free will and if they wander away, yes, they need to make the choice to grab hold of Jesus.
In regards to your other statements, there is nowhere in Scripture to defend your position. Scripture does not teach there are two salvations. In the Old Testament they were looking forward to the Messiah to come. Their salvation was by faith, not by the law-the same as the New Testament.
God not only desires to provide eternal security, he has done so in Christ.
Jude 1 says: "............to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:"
And thank you for being specific that Christians only have free will, not all men.
That is true.
We can choose to be obedient and reap the rewards of obedience which are temporal blessings and protections, or be disobedient and reap its consequences here on earth which are curses and chastisements.
But a Christian's eternal standing, whether obedient or disobedient, is never affected by his temporal or earthly conduct, because, in the first place, he did not earn heaven, which is why it is all of grace and all of mercy.
As for your last statement that my contention that there are two types or aspects of salvation in the Bible has no scriptural merit, please examine the Scriptures and you will see that the "do this an d I will do this for you and the don't do these and you will reap these" statements are all over the Bible.
Let me rephrase what I said. There are two types of salvation, or there are two aspects of one salvation.
Either way, these are eternal (all OF CHRIST and none of the sinner), and temporal (predicated on repentance, obedience, and a turning to God, and all the good stuff we teach in church).
God bless.
"And thank you for being specific that Christians only have free will, not all men."
That is not my position. All men have a free will, not just Christians.
Those who come from an eternal security position seem to always state the consequences of the conditional/if statements to mean consequences on earth, not eternal consequences. However, the context of these verses show otherwise.
Luke 8 'Falling away' means falling away.
Gal 5:4-fall from grace
Heb 3-fall away
If you fall away, you are no longer part of the 'way'.
Matthew 25-they miss the feast
Luke 12-the slave is assigned to the unbelievers, must have been a believer
John 15-the branch is burned
1 Cor 9-Paul was concerned with being disqualified-disqualified from what? heaven.
Rev 22-Take away his part in the tree of life
Heb 10-need to endure in order to receive promise
Heb 3-If holdfast to end, will receive the hope-eternal life
2 Tim 2-if endure, if deny-He will deny
All of the above verses cannot be seen as applying to consequences occurring just while here on earth-they are eternal consequences.
I guess one can see it as two aspects of salvation. I choose to see it as salvation contingent upon our faithfulness to the Lord by His grace. God is doing everything He can to keep us saved and given us the ability to be secure in our salvation if we choose to obtain that grace on an ongoing basis.
Personally, as a follower of Jesus Christ, I believe my salvation is secure. But that is because I have put my total trust in Christ and have chosen to fulfill all of the conditional statements. I have chosen to take heed to the if statements. I take them serious with eternal consequences-not just some loss I would experience on earth.
If I am right in my position, there is no harm done to the believer. If the eternal security group is wrong, there is the potential of individuals not heeding the warnings and walking away from their salvation by ongoing willful sin.
I know, many eternal security followers believe a Christian cannot walk in willful sin, but the verses I have shared in these studies show otherwise.
It's not really hard to "get saved" or to "stay saved" but your heart has to be in it. Anybody who says any different is a communist ;-)
We enter into a "covenant" relationship with God by accepting His covenant under His terms and conditions. It's a choice like choosing to buy something on credit. The covenants of God are contracts entered into by choice.
We are entering a marital relationship with the Creator of the universe. God wants a bride who loves and respects Him. He counts faith as "righteousness" and obedience as "respect".
There are a raft of scriptures in the New Testament to support the "remain faithful to the end" doctrine. It's one of the easiest doctrines to learn by the lost. A few of the saved have trouble with it, though.
Here's why. How much sin is too much sin? If you say we can sin ourselves out of God's good graces then salvation is indeed by works and not of grace. This is a VERY good argument but it focuses on sin and not the heart.
Sin is not a problem with God. Jesus died for the sins of the world. We continue in sin to our own peril, however. How do you continue to feel saved from a sin you are still addicted to? Positive affirmations can only go so far. Eventually you will wear your heart out. If we are not delivered from our life dominating dysfunctions, we are really not saved from them.
We all want to go to heaven when we die but the scriptures teach that we can be saved right now. We don't have to wait until the sweet by-and-by to live the abundant life Jesus came that we might have.
When we enter into covenant relationship with God, we receive power to overcome sin and sorryness. This is called the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Paul goes to great lengths, in Romans 6 to show how our baptism into Jesus Christ works in our favor. We don't have any power over sin without the Holy Spirit living in us but even if He is in us, we can nullify His power by not using Him.
And this is the parable of the talents. The slothful steward did not use the "Talent" the master gave him. Instead, the servant buried his Talent. This is what happens when we are baptized into Jesus Christ then try to walk this thing out under our own power - we are burying our talent.
The power over sin lives in us and He is there to aid and comfort us. Trying to make Him proud of us by our withstanding the onslaught of temptation FOR Him is not a godly use of that Spirit. He's not there to watch how well we do, He's there to DO for us. He's a Helper, not an Audience.
But so many churches teach that we should make God proud of us and not sin because we love Him (or whatever). This is a stupid and damnable waste of the power of God. God damns those who waste the power of the indwelling Spirit. Only the saved can waste that power because only the saved HAVE that power.
The Parable of the Talents proves that Once Saved Always Saved (as it is traditionally taught) is wrong.
Rob
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