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Baptism of the Holy Spirit Study Guide [Reply]

I just ran across your blog site. I want to thank you so much for addressing this issue. I for one do believe in the Gifts of the Spirit. I have never spoken any unknown language,but I know it is real. It was my choice not to speak the words that the Holy Spirit had given me. I wish to this day that I had. God knows that I have a fear of some things that are different to me. He found another way to deal with me. After I didn't speak the words given, I started having visions. Yes, I serve God, Jehovah. You can check out my site @ www.visionandvisions.blogspot.com or http://www.youtube.com/user/2Bibleppl May God bless you

The Holy Spirit [Reply]

The Holy Spirit is an essential (often missing) part of the wonderful God provided resources for Christians. We need more solid teaching on The Holy Spirit, so that He may be better known by Christian Believers, and so that the Gifts and Fruit of The Spirit may be in evidence and operation. The Holy Spirit always reveals, lifts up, and magnifies Jesus Christ!

My Experience [Reply]

I should title this story "The Man With No faith", because thats who I was a man who grew up without the church except for going to a religous institution my mother sent me to when I was a young boy. So in truth I was a man without faith. In fact I use to find the stories about Jesus' miracles ingredilous. But through the prayers of my mother and no doubt that of faithful christians praying for the lost God's grace was with me until he could get my attention the hard way.

It was 1988 and I had just arrived in the Texas prison system for the third time with a fresh 25 yr. sentence. It was a period of time when gang war had begun between two infamous prison gangs in Texas. In fact the newspapers called the Tejano-Mexicano war, a war between the Texas Syndicate and Mexican Mafia. I was young and had made up my mind to do that 25 year sentence the way I wanted. I joined the mexican mafia.

Needless to say the unit I was on was called,"The Skull" because of its history of death. It wasn't long after I joined that things erupted. Word went out for us to strike our enemies and it fell on me to take the "shanks"(homemade knives), to close custody for those on whom it fell to "hit" our enemies. I did and it happened. But the enemy knew it was I who had provided the weapons needed to do the dirty work. So about four days afterward they tried to take my life in the main hallway but by God's grace I escaped their hand.

While awaiting transfer the gang intelligence of that unit intercepted some letters that implicated me as a gang member and I was confirmed as one and sent to "Administrative Segregation' where gang members and hard heads are sent to spend their time in a cell 23 hours a day with one hour for recreation. And so I spent the next six years doing gang activity from within. But around the end of 1995 I began to to get restless and tired with the politics of gang life and wanted more out of life. I'd read the bible but mostly when there was nothing else to read as reading material would get slow at times back there. Through a daily devotional from Billy Graham I said the sinners prayer but there was no true repentence in my life only a desire to be changed without true change of mind in my heart of the way I was living. Besides having no faith I had a strong bondship to the gang and anytime I felt like abandoning them I felt like a traitor so I just wouldn't. But God saw my heart,so my hopelessness,saw my bondage,saw what lot I had in life from my youth,God saw what I had begun through bad incidents in my life and through bad choices in my life,but his grace was with me though I did not know it.

In my cell I had a wind next to the roof 2"x4' and it was my custom to roll up my matress and stand on it and look out my window and see the visitors arriving. That day as I looked out I noticed the horses the field guards used to guard inmates working in the fields,well 'horsing around'. As I looked upon them a realization that could only come from God came to me. As I saw those horses it dawned on me that they which were animals had more freedom to roam around in than I who was human! In fact I looked back at my cell and saw how it was so little compared with a whole field the horses had to roam in. I hung my head in shame of what I had become and how I was destroying my life. I mouthed what I had had in my heart for awhile now."I'm gonna find out once and for all if there is a God',you see I didn't know and was also scared to find out there was no God. But I set out in my mind to find out and by hindsight I know now God was guiding me all along. You see friend if you truly set out to find truth about God he will guide you into it no matter how small your faith is because God looks at your heart and in their I know he saw how my desire for change ,for deliverance had grown in my heart. And so with the desire to find out if there was a God came true repentence. Though I wrestled with the decision to write the gang and let them know I was stepping off,though it would put an "X" on my back I wrestled not because I was afraid of that but because I felt like a traitor for doing it. You know friend in this life we will have to make some hard decisions in order to bring about true change in our lives. It may be we might like me let go of people who truly are not your friends but simply like to do the same things you are doing yet you want change they don't. It might be you have to let go of an abusive relationship. Whatever it is when you truly want to change you must also sometimes have to change your aquintances and places you visit and things you see that go hand in hand with the life you are trying to leave behind.

So I wrote my letter and stopped speaking to them. But I also stopped listening to worldly radio and threw out al my girly magazines. Left was me,my bible,a daily devotional from Billy Graham,and christian radio. And so the spiritual battle for my soul began. As I read the bible I felt dry like an old sponge,it didn't motivate me and in fact I'd laugh at some of those miracles but I kept reading. I would sometime throw the bible in a corner as my mind would hear cursing God and Jesus and what a fake the bible was but I cling to some of a verse I'd read in the bible,Resist the devil and he will flee from you. And so I kinda ground my teeth and kept reading the bible even though I felt nothing but frustration of being alone now among enemies who were once my "brothers". Yet as I said God was guiding me. From the book of Esther "I" got the idea of fasting three days and nights without food and water except to brush my teeth.Every seven days I decided to do that. God gave me both the desire and strength to carry this out. As I neared my third fast I was listening to christian radio and they were havig a revival live on the radio. As I listened to joyful sounding people telling there testimony I felt envious because I wanted joy and happiness in my life too. A couple of tears finally rolled out my eyes. Tears I could not remember shedding in I don't know how many years. And I began to hear a small still voice saying to me 'Go Pray,Go Pray',now as I said I had no faith and sure didn't know anything about prayer. My "prayers" consisted of reading psalms I like from the bible and an idea I got from the book of Daniel who prayed to God morning,noon and night,I also did. So I was there thinking to myself,Go Pray? I already said my prayers for the day. But the voice kept being persistant and finally I got up,took out my bible and said those psalms again but as I was getting up I fell on my knees and asked what I was terified of asking because I thought it wouldin't happen,but God helped me. So I cried out ,Lord fill me with your holy Spirit! And I saw a light so bright that I shut my eyes and the Spirit came upon me and I spoke in an unknown language and fell to the florr of my cell crying rivers of tears. And all I could say over and over was 'Thank You Jesus!' And that my friend is how I recieved the baptism of the holy Spirit without any influence from any churches becuase at that time I didn't even know what a 'denomination' was,much less there doctrines.

From that night I couldn't get enough of reading the bible all the while with a stupid grin on my face. I was finally joyful and happy! Why God had to take me threw that route to get to that point I don't know. But one thing I do know if you repent from a destructive lifestyle and seek God with all your heart you will find him. God is real,his word is true and his Jesus who died for our sins and was buried and on the third day God raised him from the dead will come live in your heart through the holy Spirit and give you back what the devi stole from humanity,a relationship with God your saviour,through the work of his Son,Jesus,by the vehicle of the holy Spirit. Believing you shall recieve. amen!

Baptism of the Holy Spirit Study Guide [Reply]

Richard,

Good job, bro. I really like how you linked these concepts together. This is really a very good treatment of the subject matter. (Of course, I'm only through the first lesson. Maybe it doesn't remain as well thought out. I trust it will).

In the first lesson, I think your document could benefit by saying something like, "The expression 'receive the Holy Spirit' is used sometimes in reference to the 'indwelling' of the Holy Spirit and sometimes to the 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit'".

For example, Acts 2:38 (KJV) says, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The form of the Holy Ghost the 3,000 souls received on the day of Pentecost was NOT the miraculous form (Baptism of the Holy Spirit). We infer this from verse 43, which says, "And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles."

The people who were water baptized received the gift of the Holy Spirit but not the form that manifests itself in signs and wonders. Otherwise, they wouldn't exhibit "fear" when the apostles performed them. See what I mean?

So, we have to take into account the fact that there is scriptural support for the doctrine, which says, "One receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the point that they are water baptized."

This doctrine is consistent with all the references you beautifully bring out in Lesson One. Unfortunately, it is inconsistent with your stated belief that one can receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit PRIOR to water baptism. And, in fact, there is not scriptural support for that doctrine.

Consequently, your conclusion that one must be saved in order for one to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is false because it supposes that Cornelius and his household were born again - which they were not.

"Born again" happens at the point one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. According to Acts 2:38, one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when one is baptized unto Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. If we take any other stance or doctrinal position then we must ignore Acts 2:38. A good doctrine always takes into account all the scriptures related to a given subject.

Of course, if we agree with Acts 2:38, we must DISagree with most of modern Protestantism, which says that one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the point that they believe the message of the cross. That position cannot be supported by the scriptures as your citing of Acts 19:1-6 clearly shows.

Rob

Disagree regarding Water Baptism [Reply]

I disagree in regards that a person must be water baptized to be saved. One cannot form a doctrine based upon one verse-there are no other verses that say one must be water baptized. There are multitudes of verses that say how a person is saved and not one of them besides Acts 2:38 mention water baptism as part of the equation.

Salvation is by faith alone, not works, deeds. All that is required is to trust and rely upon Jesus. After we have done that, then works will follow. Baptism in water is to show my obedience, not the means of my salvation.

And to say that a person can be filled with the Holy Spirit and not be born again is contrary to Scripture. Light and darkness cannot dwell together. A lost person (darkness) cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit (light) unless the darkeness is gone. The darkness leaves when the person is born again. Thus you must be born again to be spirit filled.

In Acts 19:1 the disciples were born again before being water baptized.

believed [on Jesus as the Christ]amplified
when you believed? NIV
when you believed?"NKJV
when you became believers?" NRSV
In the Greek believe means:
"to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," —Vine's Expository

These disicples did not have just a head knowledge of Jesus, they had a reliance on Jesus.

Re: Disagree regarding Water Baptism [Reply]

I don't want to go too far afield on this because we need to limit the discussion to the material without regard to our preconceived notions. Wouldn't you agree?

1 Peter 3:21 comes right out and says "baptism doth also now save "US" ("us" includes the apostles). Acts 2:38 is not the only scripture that teaches this doctrine.

We don't limit our salvation to any single event. Nobody does. You don't. I don't. For a person to have a heartfelt "conversion" is one thing but doesn't the scripture also say that "with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation"? Therefore, one must believe with the heart AND confess with the lips and he will be saved, right? I don't care how hard he believes. No confession, no salvation.

No self respecting Christian would ever think to exclude confession from our salvation, would they? No right thinking Christian, that is.

So, when we look at the HUGE subject of salvation, our doctrine MUST take into account EVERY scripture on the subject, otherwise we risk messing up the birthing process.

Paul said in latter part of Romans 8:9 - "... Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His".

Therefore, having the Holy Spirit is essential to salvation. When does one receive the gift of the Holy Spirit - according to the scriptures?

This is where your document come is very handy because it covers the expression "receive the Holy Spirit". The problem is that it assumes that "receive the Holy Spirit" is ALWAYS a reference to the miraculous form. It's not.

Let's not get too far down this path without me giving you props for a pretty great document on this subject. It could stand some punching up but it's great because it's a technical approach to an emotional topic. Like you, I'm a computer nerd. I appreciate truth like you do.

Let's see if we can file this thing down to as few variables as possible. Salvation is too large a topic (although the Holy Spirit plays the major role). I propose we stick to the subject of the Holy Spirit and see where it leads us. Okay?

Let's take some of the assumptions of your document and see if the scriptures bear them out in every case. In 64-pages, I'll bet you got one or two things that could stand a little tweaking.

Neither of us is a stranger to repentance. I know that a computer geek values truth over everything. Every engineer does. If someone shows us a better way to do our jobs, we might get our little feelings hurt for a second but, who cares, ya know? We learned something!

I'm willing to trash everything I believe about God in favor of a better understanding. That's called a heart for repentance. I'm willing to receive teaching on this or any other biblical topic - as long as it's bible based and not some joker's baseless opinion, ya know?

What do you say? Shall we engage?

Re: Disagree regarding Water Baptism [Reply]

Richard,

One other thing. We are not permitted to call water baptism a "work" that we do. Why? The bible calls baptism a work but not a work that WE do.

Col. 2:12 - "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead."

Work is going on at our baptism but not our work, right? As far as we are concerned, "baptism is faith" (faith in the operation of God). I mean, the apostle Paul (the apostle of grace) taught AND practiced water baptism. He was at least as smart as we are about this stuff, wouldn't you agree?

Therefore, if one believes that one is doing a "work" at his baptism then, it could be argued that his baptism is invalid. Baptism saves (according to the scriptures) and we are NOT saved by our works (according to the scriptures). Any doctrine about salvation MUST reconcile these facts.

Traditional Protestantism does not resolve this apparent contradiction and she couldn't care less. Catholicism claims that one must be baptized to be saved (a scriptural position) but then she perverts baptism into a ritual practiced on infants who don't believe anything. Both Catholicism and Protestantism does this subject a disservice.

Thinking out of the box, we can reconcile the contradiction by believing what the bible says about it. (Imagine that :-))

We are saved by grace through faith and baptism is our faith in the work (or operation) of God, who raised up Jesus from the dead. That doctrine fits perfectly.

We CANNOT resolve this apparent contradiction if we claim that baptism is a "work that we do" (which is the mainstream Protestant position). If baptism were a work that we do then the apostle Paul would have been as dead-set against it as he was circumcision. He wasn't.

Rob

Stick with topic of BHS [Reply]

I will not be posting anymore comments under this section regarding a person must be water baptized to be saved. Need to stick on topic. Rob has some good points, but I still believe Scripture does not teach baptism is required for salvation-it is the action to show your faith.

Also, in regards to the topic on hand, rather have comments dealing directly with each post on this topic instead of this summary page.

One last comment [Reply]

I believe Our God is among other things logical and practical. To say a person must be water baptized to be saved is not logical or practical in many situations-individuals in prisons who have no means of being baptized would not be able to be saved, individuals in hospitals would not be able to be saved, individuals who are bedridden would not be able to be saved. What if someone accepts Christ at a restaurant with all sincerity and gets hit by a drunk driver as they pull out of the restaurant? Are they not saved if they did not get baptized?